Jason: Welcome back to another episode of the sales experience podcast. Welcome back to part two of my conversation with Dr. Wayne Baker. We are going to continue where we left off, talking about how valuable and important it is to ask for what you want, where that fits in with salespeople, how that applies, where people struggle.

We're going to cover all of that in his smart framework and what he does and what he is focused on helping people with. So make sure if you haven't already subscribed to the podcast, you can get episodes every single day and you can check out the cutter consulting group website to find the show notes and links to everything that Dr. Wayne is working on. So here you go. Here's part two.

Dr. Wayne: Because then it's a hard request to turn down, but you're the boss that says, Hey, this person's thought this through. I send them on this training. They're clear why they want to do it. And the benefit to me as well as to them and the organization, it's hard to turn down a request like that, a thoughtful request.

Jason: And it's fascinating because two things come to mind when I'm hearing you go through this. One is. I know from a management leadership perspective, when I've had people ask me for help, for resources, for information, for coaching, to go to a seminar, whatever that might be, especially if it's set up in the right way, that I am super excited they're doing it and I will give them whatever I can to help them because it's that person out of the group that I know if they're making that request, it's because they're open, they're curious, they want to expand, they want to learn.

And they're technically more valuable to me and the organization because they care about progressing and not being stuck or staying in their comfort zone or doing what they're always doing, like they're looking at ways to improve. And to me, I see that as the sign of somebody who's striving to be or is a professional, which is they're willing to look at.

The game footage, the recordings of their calls or their meetings. They want the feedback. They want to grow. They want coaching. They want help. And yeah, to your point, I mean, I know that some people hesitate in asking for anything because they're afraid of what that might make them look like, right? Like they're not.

Good enough, or they should already know that and they're not doing it right. And from a leadership side, I will say like the people who ask the questions during meetings and the ones that ask for help outside of that. Those are the ones that I usually see go further.

Dr. Wayne: What you just said reminds me of another common barrier and that is over reliance on self reliance.

I think this is especially true for salespeople. They feel that they have to be totally self reliant and do it all themselves. But that's impossible for anyone. You could be a lot more effective, more productive, perform at a higher level, be more satisfied by getting resources from other people. You mentioned a bunch of them that are really important for everyone and I think especially for people in sales.

You know, to get mentoring, to get coaching, to ask for feedback, to have a session recorded and to listen to what people say about that and how you can improve that pitch or how he improved how you related to that person. And as you say, that indicates the person wants to grow. They want to learn, they want to develop.

That's what a boss wants. That person is going to be a lot more valuable. So, I would say that the boss should be a role model of the behavior that they want. So, they should encourage the members of their sales team to speak up and to ask for what they need to be more effective at their jobs. It's going to make the individual better, the team better, and oh, by the way, it's going to make the boss better as well, look better.

But it should be that the boss is saying, look, I want to hear what you need to be more effective and to be more successful, and then I will tap my network and my resources. to help you.

Jason: And I think that really goes to the mindset of what you're focused on with the book and everything that you're doing and what's online, which is that mindset of asking and knowing what you want and then making those requests for the right reasons in the right ways with the right framework.

Because I'll tell you again, as a sales leader in organizations, it is cumbersome and tiring. to pull everybody up all the time, right, is to convince people they should learn more or grow more and get them out of being stuck. Nothing more exciting than having someone push a leader for more, right, and want to do more.

And if that's inside of you. I think that's an important lesson to make sure and don't hold back. Do it in the right framework because I've had some people ask me in a not the right framework and it doesn't work and it actually goes the opposite way. It makes me not want to help them. But yeah, I mean, I think that's the key.

And so then the second part I was going to say. Relative to salespeople asking is that generally what I've seen for people who struggle with making their requests or asking in kind of the framework that you're talking about, Dr. Wayne, is that they probably also struggle in that same way in their sales career because they probably handle their sales conversations in the same way, whereas they're not clear, they're not digging deep, they're not doing the things that we were talking about.

And so then that request to a manager, a request to somebody on the team is pretty much a reflection of how they operate. So if you're struggling with people to get your requests met, I wonder how much of that is just something they can work on that might be an overarching, I wouldn't say symptom, but an indication.

Dr. Wayne: Oh, absolutely. I think that you will see common patterns across the relationships you have with your boss or with members of the sales team. The commonalities with how you interact with and relate to customers. And even you're like at home that a lot of these relationship principles, how to ask and make appropriate requests, those criteria apply across all those different domains.

Like for example, I have an 18 year old who's now graduating from high school and he's starting college in the fall. And I find that when I make a request of him to do something, that the M of SMART is really important, the Y of the request, why it's meaningful. I try to avoid the method that my dad used with me, which is You know what's coming, right?

Jason: I already know what you're going to say. I already know it.

Dr. Wayne: You're going to do it because I told you so, right? Yep. Which gets compliance, but not engagement, right? Engagement means you want to do it rather than you have to do it.

Jason: Yeah, and it's interesting because we're talking about salespeople, managers, leaders in organizations and in life.

And I think you're absolutely correct. I mean, as much as people try to show up for their job and then pretend to be something different or play a part, it's usually tough to do that long term. And most people show up the same everywhere, which is why I finished my podcast for everyone listening. They already know this, that everything in life is sales, right?

Like every conversation with the boss, with the manager, with your team, with a significant other. Kids. I mean, that's all some kind of persuasion conversation and in your framework talking about asking. But I think that why is so important, both for getting what you want in any conversation, any request and then specifically in sales.

I mean, one of the things I tell people All the time is if you need the prospect to do something for you, or you're going to ask them a whole bunch of questions, which is basically an ask, right? Like you're asking for this response and time from that person, right? If we look at the sales processes, mini ask, not the big ask of, Hey, we'll grab your credit card so we can do this.

But like all these mini asks throughout the conversation. Is to tell them why, like I want to ask lots of questions because I want to understand you, your situation and if this is going to be a good fit and when you do that meaningful step in your ask and set up the framework, then there's going to be a lot of compliance and engagement where someone goes, okay, now that makes sense.

It's not just somebody asking me a bunch of questions, giving me the third degree. And then I'm going to be defensive. Hey, it's Jason here. We'll be right back to the podcast. But first, are you ready to change the way you view your selling role and become a sales professional? Do you have a team that is hungry for new ways to improve and grow?

If so, I have various coaching and consulting programs available. That might be great tools to help you achieve your goals to learn more about the ways we can work together and to book your free sales, power call, go to Jason cutter. com. Now let's get back to the episode. Yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Wayne: And to do it in the proper spirit, which is. You are truly trying to understand the other person, the other person's needs, their goals and objectives, and to see, as you said, whether there's a fit, whether your product or service is the right one, and to be willing to say, you know what, based on all what I've learned, I said, I don't think this is the right product for you, or the right service, which is very, very hard.

You know, if you're measured on a quota, and you've got commissions, and there's a leaderboard you're thinking of, and it's at the end of the quarter, right? It's hard. But you know, I think that in the long run, you're You're much better off and be much more successful in the long run. I know somebody who took this approach when they were selling insurance programs to large institutions, large organizations like universities or corporations.

So these, every sale is an enormous sale. And the loss of that sale, a sale done away is an

enormous, enormous loss. And They said, you know, the way that we used to do it is that we would go in, this person was telling me, and say, we basically would say what the customer team wants to hear, knowing that we can't deliver on all of that, and no one can deliver on all of that, and so they said, you know, we're going to try something different, which is to say, Okay.

No, we can't deliver on that. And none of our competitors can deliver on that as well. Here is what we can deliver on. And we promise we'll deliver on those things. And he said, you know, we're going to probably lose a sale here and there as a result. But in the long run, the positive impact on our reputation as being honest and genuine and truly taking the client's needs into account is going to pay off in the long run. And that's what they discovered, but they had to weather it for them a little bit of a drop in their sales in order to get those longer term reputational benefits.

Jason: And one of the lessons I take from that story in particular for salespeople as well is.

That it's not always going to be what the prospect wants to hear, even if it is that you can help them. A lot of prospects, whether it's a consumer or it's a business, have this ideal dream of what the perfect solution is that also has no pain, no downside and is perfect and is probably also cheap. And so that doesn't exist.

Like your story, right? Like we want somebody who comes in and fixes all of this. It's like, that's not possible. Like we don't do it. Nobody else does it. And I think it's important to embrace the role, especially as a sales professional, where your job isn't to push everyone into a solution. Your job is to find the right solution.

And sometimes you've got to be delivering some less than pleasant news that's there's a silver lining. You can still help them might not be what they want. And then you have to stand by that. Absolutely. And understand that there might be losses. There might be people who say no, but at the end of the day, you're doing the right thing.

And then you're also not writing a check. That you can't cash because you've overcommitted to what you could do.

Dr. Wayne: Right, or you close a sale and down the road the customer is really unhappy with you. Yeah. And felt like you sold them a bill of goods. And, you know, then says things about you that's going to hurt your reputation.

And we all know that bad reputational news follow goes a lot further and faster than good reputations, right? Yeah. So there's that to think about as well. Not just the immediate sale, but the long term impact on your reputation. Yeah.

Jason: And then going back to this conversation of asking, which is something I do training on as well, which is the power of telling somebody no when in those situations where it's not a good fit at all, but then also doing that second step, which is this whole thing we're talking about, which is the ask and asking that person specifically, or making sure they understand that you value their referrals and that connection.

And that, you know, if there's anyone else that they know of. That you'd love to help them. I see salespeople who are afraid to do that, ask whether the sale is successful or not. And they just aren't asking for referrals or introductions or connections. And there seems to be so many reasons for that. Yeah.

Dr. Wayne: And it's also asking for a testimonial where you say that some salespeople are reluctant to ask for that, even with a satisfied customer, they have another customer and they say, well, I don't know, but you need to go back to that first one and say, Hey, who's happy. Right. Would you give a testimonial for me?

Would you speak? to this other potential customer and let them know what the experience was like for you and how well the product or the service worked out for you. That most people are delighted to do that. Remember they, in fact, what we've shown in our research is that people feel bad when they say no, right?

Jason: Is that people really do want to help. And so why, mindset wise, Do, let's say, people not ask for those testimonials from happy customers.

Dr. Wayne: I think it comes back to some of those barriers. It's the over reliance on self reliance or a fear of rejection or not knowing how to make the request, not thinking of those five smart criteria.

Sometimes I found that even in an opportunity where you can ask for anything that sometimes people get stuck and they go, wow, I've had people kind of say, I've always wanted to be in a situation where I could ask anyone for anything. And I don't know what to ask for it. Right. Because they haven't been clear about what their goals are, what they're trying to achieve, and then what are the resources that they need.

So some thoughtfulness and some clarity about what you're trying to do, what you're. I also encourage people to create a long term vision of success and to actually write a narrative about that. And you know, what's that preferred future that you want? And the best way to do this, in fact, I have all my MBA students do this.

It's one of their final projects is they have to write a vision of what success looks like for them three to five years down the road. And it has to be written in the present tense as if we took a time machine into the future. And they were showing me all the evidence around them. of what had happened, what they had created.

And what they found is that when you do that, and you have that, you're much more likely to create that future. Because you're really clear about the future that you want. So you can think about in sales or any profession as well, saying, okay, what, three or five years down the road, what does success look like for you?

And actually write it out as a narrative, vivid details. You know, as if we went forward in a time machine and you were showing everyone about all these great things that had happened, if you've got that in mind, then you can start backing up from there and say, well, what do I need? What do we need to ask for?

Jason: That's it for part two. I will see you tomorrow for part three of the conversation with Dr. Wayne Baker, as always keep in mind that everything in life is sales and people remember the experience you give them.